跟贾陆英老师学《论语》为政篇第1章 2013年12月13日

     今日下午3：30贾陆英老师《论语》问答录在老秘网QQ群“重温经典读书会”准时开讲。本期学习讨论《论语》为政篇第1章，网友们的参与热情高涨。老猫出差刚回，现整理如下：

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( K3 D( r' p# Gmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">今天下午，我们学习讨论《论语》为政篇第7 W1 t+ q5 i4 {% R" ` mso-font-kerning:0pt">1% Q* D( s( O) X% [' O) Pfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">章：' E) {6 a, [$ M% m5 W) ? mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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8 }; [! |+ t& l2•1$ b, J% `2 B h/ y! k7 U% X) CTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">子曰：. U$ Z' t2 P9 H2 `7 @ mso-font-kerning:0pt">"/ c% `) z9 z8 V( q+ k mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">为政以德，譬如北辰，居其所而众星共之。7 |$ N: z6 W+ t% [6 fcolor:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">"
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/ q D! G5 m2 v# D9 O, n, xmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">北辰：指北极星。所：处所、位置。共：同拱，环绕。比喻众多的人簇拥着一个被他们尊敬的人，或许多东西围绕着一个中心。9 u Z4 h4 l) e: [+ ^% fmso-font-kerning:0pt">
" K( R" P2 ]# L4 P4 I3 e! S9 D7 H$ V7 @4 W' Q7 J# N Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; 0 D1 K* D% X. j9 G+ }3 _mso-font-kerning:0pt">孔子说：1 S, {) O3 O s% ^5 @9 A, w 10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">“' a3 p7 X+ l0 j mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">靠高尚的品德来施政，这样的为政者好比是北极星，居于自己的位置上，众多的星星都环绕着它。2 S7 A t* i( L ]( V mso-font-kerning:0pt">”
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1 n2 T1 h- ~9 {: Tmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; ; [# A2 M9 u6 n. T, y; pmso-font-kerning:0pt">问：这句话表达了孔子的什么主张？) L7 A0 z2 R! F+ K+ W6 x$ Ccolor:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">
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% f6 k4 A& q; w# tmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: ; C& s D- N7 c1 p2 BTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">答：孔子以北辰居其中而众星环绕作比喻，深刻揭示了具有高尚品德对于为政者的重要性，具体、形象、生动地表达了孔子的德治思想。当时，在如何治理国家的问题上，主要有两种主张：其一是依靠政令刑法，强制百姓服从；其二是通过道德教化，引导百姓走上正道。孔子主张后者，强调为政者首先要以自己高尚的品德为榜样，尔后才能教化、影响、引导民众。9 D8 y9 S- m& [( g% Dmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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7 {8 X% O) r0 [# z7 cTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">Leslie$ o) P/ }- C$ Z3 n' t10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">：4 e" q8 [" D2 C D9 r0 S mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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6 p; P9 L7 o/ f' B9 l+ T$ Tmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">仁政具体指的是什么？道德层面的东西我觉得都太虚了，没有一个标准。同志们认为呢# e+ a7 ^% |" I' i5 ^6 o8 wmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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. ~8 Y' f# _- G" k1 Z$ Zmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: 1 Q# E0 I1 W9 \% Z, q6 `0 eTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：9 ]! X) |% D7 l4 n- k% j% D0pt">

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) _" b. K1 D, X/ Z10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服，以礼仪道德，民治而心服4 \* V" R! I: \1 P mso-font-kerning:0pt">——, y) _. j+ Q9 d: S. w3 Z- O font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; , t2 i2 v3 |7 L" Z4 q6 s$ k4 Hmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的，这就是孔子说的& n, e0 T/ Q) Jmso-font-kerning:0pt">"8 A, H9 @, g& L9 R font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; * a/ P. t# i* _/ ]. Xmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。1 D1 T7 c2 ]% y& h mso-font-kerning:0pt">"

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& |4 N, j- F- j9 t 10.5pt;font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ' `8 b% n4 C9 h `mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？孔子的人性不分善恶，他信奉有教无类。我认为是孔子信奉的是德治礼治，而不是德治法治，儒法结合是后人的创新, f9 U8 V# I0 q8 s e8 E& Rmso-font-kerning:0pt">

$ Q k8 s. ~5 t& i7 C/ y" a; _+ j: ~- s mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: - j9 _( N0 |+ I% I" uTahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">好風如水：+ d( x6 T, X$ q5 V1 r" w0 O 0pt">

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) o, m; w9 Q; N. m& ^) Dmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: " B, D1 m, H5 VTahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒家法家绝对是治国两大法宝，是不是有说内法外王。希望依靠道德来治理国家。道德高尚至极只能是圣人，而不是君王。君王要有仁爱之心，但不能妄想通过道德来治理国家吧。干部要清明、清廉、清白" `: y ^6 i' Y% f. r7 d. e) e) P! ^mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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* S: F- E' S$ h* _( Omso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想。儒法相结合不是从以往执政者所言的外儒内法。应该是在去除封建统治者为维护统治所宣扬的糟粕基础上，留下儒家所宣扬的大仁、大爱的思想，在结合现代化的法制、民主的精神，才是真正的儒法结合。一味从古，不如不学& i0 G2 a, V- F+ a* ]; L/ Fmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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1 H4 O/ n6 |) U: Q( |. I1 B6 n. ?mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">现在不是都在强调以民为本，为人民服务么5 R6 r- B6 x( w- @4 Y mso-font-kerning:0pt">——) d! V2 _/ }9 s) t$ p: \& \ font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">这一思想的文化渊源，就是德治、仁政思想。德是孔子所说的君子之道吗？4 Q9 X. t( o. U B4 L* Q( c, R @$ smso-font-kerning:0pt">——% L& M) d( a; `: [7 Ofont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">是的。为政者之德，还要突出以身作则，正人先正己，为下属作出表率。! `4 i! n- H3 t' I$ ]' U4 k 0pt"> 3 P+ G+ v+ v3 w6 HTahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">“贾老师，学生认为：政令刑罚、道德教化二者不可偏其一，无道德教化，民暴而戾，无政令刑罚，民散而慢。总而言之，应用儒家思想来做人，用发家思想来做事，这也符合我们的辩证法思想”% Y- j; @) U8 E- F% [2 w, s9 w mso-font-kerning:0pt">——5 v4 K2 t, H$ K) M% t font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; ! y2 B, k; N# G% D: i9 K8 D- nmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">基本赞同。孔子所说$ U' s5 v5 ~' p4 |9 gmso-font-kerning:0pt">"0 e; `( f- r9 z8 P" r zfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; # A# F$ H' o! `/ t9 emso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">道之以政，齐之以刑，民免而无耻；道之以德，齐之以礼，有耻且格。, }4 B$ p ~5 g mso-font-kerning:0pt">"4 Q- Y* G* E- y+ M0 }" }7 M font-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; 3 }: Y$ s3 E8 X* |3 m- \mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">本身就包含着德治与法治相结合的观点。3 q# u9 M. H- b0 Q. v$ Mmso-font-kerning:0pt">

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m4 H/ u; |9 A8 z: c. J- Vmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">以礼仪道德，民治而心服7 y! i3 w) d, O) A( V4 t2 Q 0pt">    : \& D( d. u; Q4 f- \" a: G8 g zfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本善% Z4 C. b, I! U% D mso-font-kerning:0pt">     - H4 l( k* [+ O- C% e: ^8 bmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; ; e9 N9 J$ L5 [. p6 L/ ymso-font-kerning:0pt">以政令刑法，民治而心不服6 Z: L/ \) J# B0 }" ~. F6 x10.5pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt"> ) W! h. m, {/ zmso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black; mso-font-kerning:0pt">人性本恶。人性本善，礼仪道德，天下大和。人性本恶，礼仪道德，与虎谋皮啊! t9 H6 o! R2 Z" I6 m mso-font-kerning:0pt">

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9 h& I5 ~" }3 S) F. Dmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">政令刑法重在社会上的约束，讲究实效，不遵守即被处罚，道德教化重在精神上、舆论上的约束，不遵守会被谴责和孤立，但不是收到立竿见影的实质处罚" A9 I1 n& I: H3 v0 u8 w0 S2 {- Smso-font-kerning:0pt">

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\" p2 @% s; R, L) L5 ~: r! j& bmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">小风飕飕地：5 O) M% m, u9 p. |0 n3 F0pt">

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8 m# v/ [* `; g6 Z; Wmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:#006EFE;mso-font-kerning:0pt">贾陆英：( L( u9 S8 u- m( ^8 M$ \ 0pt">

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7 V7 s0 s. u/ N2 P! zmso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;mso-bidi-font-family: Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">儒学是以伦理道德思想为特质的观念体系，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的显著特征之一。儒学是以礼乐文明为中心的文化系统，这是它区别于世界上其他文明的又一显著特征。现在确有一些人认为，道德修养方面的问题是4 I6 j1 }6 E% c# f7 A5 mmso-font-kerning:0pt">“! _( V6 O, s, B9 V1 ^1 Wfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; l- I( h& s' b) @4 B# J+ G9 Wmso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">细节问题' X" E1 |; ~; i3 Y! @( Rmso-font-kerning:0pt">” n$ x, a/ d) Tfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，没有必要小题大做。这种认识是十分错误和有害的。2 b# B' d9 e" u. Y0 { d" @0 Fmso-font-kerning:0pt">“# \- O% `$ i3 H7 o' J" G; J/ Ifont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">千里之堤，溃于蚁穴: j; O9 U% A$ ?* Y mso-font-kerning:0pt">”( p# w+ v# O! D5 N9 gfont-family:宋体;mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-font-kerning:0pt">，少数人走上违法犯罪道路，往往是从道德品质上出问题开始的。没有职业操守，就不可能做到爱岗敬业。我们培养敬业精神，一定要紧紧抓住加强道德修养这个重点。

好多领导都喜欢说几句

贾老师，不愧是儒学精英。

感谢了，学习了哈！:D

听君一席话，胜读十年书啊

看君一篇文，胜读十年书！

看了老师们的点评和解说，胜读十年书！

感谢，为什么有乱码啊？

学习了，受到了很多启发